Podcast 178 — What makes a great learning organisation?

The LPI recently surveyed learning leaders, asking them to name their toughest workplace challenges.

Written by Ross Garner
Published 21 January 2020
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Podcast 178 — What makes a great learning organisation?

The results? Creating a learning culture, developing the workforce of the future, digital transformation and digital learning, leadership and management development, and self-directed learning.

This week on The GoodPractice Podcast, Owen Ferguson and Ross Garner are joined by LPI CEO Ed Monk to discuss what these findings mean for learning organisations.

In this episode you'll find out about:

  • Increased confidence among learning professionals
  • The meaning of ‘learning culture’ and how it is created
  • The longer-term meaning of ‘performance’
Ross Garner

Hello and welcome to The Good Practice podcast, a weekly show about work performance and learning. I'm Ross Garner and this week we're speaking to Ed Monk, CEO of the Learning and Performance Institute about what makes a great learning organization. Hello, Ed. Welcome to the show

Ed

Hi, pleasure to be on it. I've only heard good things about this so I'm delighted to finally make my appearance

Ross Garner

And joining us is usual contributor, Owen Ferguson. Hello, Owen

Owen

Oh! I'm usual contributor now?

Ross Garner

What do I normally say?

Owen

Regular.

Ross Garner

I've done 170 of these. I can't remember my own script.

Owen

I know. Well, you did your intro differently last week. I was quite thrown. Last week it was, ""Hey."" Now we're back to, ""Hello and welcome."

Ross Garner

I know, but that was a first of a new decade. I was trying to experiment, but I've tried to come back to my normal safe and tried and tested

Ed

Is there a TO system, his usual below regular as far as contribution goes

Owen

That's what I'm wondering. For one of the live shows, I was co-host

Ross Garner

Yeah. That was a one off. Ed, let's get down to business. The LPI recently surveyed learning leaders who had registered for the Learning Life Conference, asking them about their toughest workplace challenges. And you reported five common issues in a blog from the end of last year

So top one, creating a learning culture. Then developing the workforce of the future. The digital transformation and digital learning. Fourth was leadership and management development. And fifth was self directed learning. So what do these issues tell us about modern organizations

Ed

I think it's probably important to say that the actual question that was asked of these people was what are their top challenges as learning leaders? What were they struggling with? And that formed a basis of the content of the event. That's why we did it.

And so we didn't give them necessarily a breakdown of options. They were through text, telling us what their challenges were. The reason I say that is because it was less prescriptive. So it was really interesting that they came back, spontaneously, with such answers.

I think what it tells about modern organizations as whole, workplaces, is that culture is extremely important. I think it's a famous Peter Drucker quote, isn't it? Culture eats strategy for breakfast. But more importantly, in this technological world, we're seeing that the culture of a company is incredibly important to its success in attracting talent

One of the things I've use in the few presentations that I've done around the world recently is the Glassdoor, depending where you are in the UK, Glassdoor. I'm from Manchester, so I will say Glassdoor. The growth of Glassdoor, the kind of exponential growth, the reason behind the ... There are tow things that I would comment on

Ross Garner

Do mind explaining what Glassdoor is for anyone who doesn't know?

Ed

Yeah, of course. So it's the fastest growing recruitment site. But I think that needs a bit of explaining, because what is a recruitment site. But it's a place where you can report back on where you work. It's very democratic. It's not placed. And you can also report back on places that you have worked, or places you've been for interviews.

So if you wanted to go and work somewhere, you could log into Glassdoor and find out a bit about the company from people who've genuinely been there. And it's growing faster than LinkedIn. So what is that? I think it's probably down to the fact that it's a really true reflection of the culture of the workplace. That's what I like about it

And secondly, what's really interesting is one of the top things that is discussed on this platform is the development opportunities within the organization. So it's not just maybe when I first started, I had an awful experience there. This manager was terrible. I'll never go there again. Now it's a lot more ... They're more advanced, I would say, in the discussions that are happening

But learning has started to rise to the top as the subject matter. I worked there for two years. It was great. But there was no development for me. In all the time I was there, I didn't do any programs, I had no opportunities to learn anything.

And I honestly think that's a huge change, just in the language people are using. That they're actually talking about learning. That wasn't happening when I took my first job. But there's a quote recently about millennials saying that that's their first imperative. Their priority, when they're looking a for a job, is the development opportunities. Well, for my generation, it was doing a job that you liked doing, that could pay the rent. And then starting, and then you going further

And I'm not sure I necessarily agree with the millennial comment. What I do agree with is the culture in a workplace is incredibly important. And Learning, with a capital L, has a huge role to play in that culture. And I think that the number one, creating a strong learning culture, is particularly interesting to me. Not least because I don't think it's possible to create a learning culture. But nurturing and nudging, as I think maybe I'll talk about later, that is possible

So yeah. The answer to your question, I think, what it tells about modern organizations is that they are becoming softer and harder at the same time. There's more people skills involved in learning companies. But also technology is permeating every single thing that we do. So no surprise that in the top five you got digital transformation and yet a cultural response as well is the number one

Owen

Yeah. I mean, I find asking people about what they find challenging, what's hard right now, it's a really useful way of uncovering what they're concerned about. And I like the fact that it was an open question, and then you analyzed the results afterwards to pull out the themes.

I think what's interesting to me about the top five is as much as what is in there is what's not in there. So what doesn't appear is getting buy in from the business, or senior level support, or budget, which are some of the things that I think traditionally you have heard in the past, L&D departments have been talking about

So the very fact that these challenges that are sitting there are about how do we go about creating a learning culture, and not I don't have enough money to run my department, I think is ... It's a really positive sign

Ross Garner

And so to tie those two answers together, that is maybe L&D leaders now feel like they do have budget, and they are now getting influence more from the people who make those budgetary decisions around the thing that we want you to do is create a great culture to attract talent. Is that where you're both coming from there

Ed

Yeah. That's one area. I think to attract talent, but to do a whole myriad of other things as well. But one positive outcome is that you're attracting and retaining good talent. I think you've drawn a really good point there with L&D maybe even three years ago, we were talking about efficacy, return on investment, securing budget, doing more with less. These were really common themes

But suddenly, learning is very high on the agenda for most organizations actually. The Economist quote about life long learning being an economic imperative, I wouldn't have expected that when I began at the LPI a couple of decades ago. It was one of the first things to cut, along with marketing.

So for it to now be really important to people, and to companies, to drive success, I think that's why you've seen the change in the challenges people have, is less survivalist. And they feel much more part of the business. So demonstrating our return ... Do you not agree with that

Ross Garner

So I think it's possible to look at those challenges and take a positive message about how L&D see themselves. But I think it's also possible to spin it negatively. So what if I spin it negatively for fun, and then we can see how you feel about it.

Ed

Okay. Negative for fun. All right.

Ross Garner

Learning leaders, what are things that they are worried about? Creating a leaning culture, number one. Maybe they feel that people don't seem to care about learning. Developing the workforce of the future. They're worried that because people don't care, that might leave us vulnerable. Digital transformation. We keep trying stuff that doesn't work. Leadership and management development. Maybe managers are the answer. If only they would listen to us. And then self directed learning, individuals are very poor at identifying their own learning needs, or feel they don't have the time to do so

So you might look at it and go, ""Oh! Look at the concerns. They're part of the business. They've got support from senior leaders."" Or you might look at it and go, ""They're having an existential crisis."

Ed

Yeah. Well, I can argue with the conjecture

Ross Garner

It is conjecture with it.

Ed

Yeah. But I think if you ... I mean, I don't have all the data at hand now. But I think if you looked at the language people use when they wrote the answers, it is much more positive. So nobody was really writing, ""I find it incredibly frustrating this. Or there is no way I can get this organization to improve its culture."

It was much more positive. And they want to be doing thins. Obviously, when you use the word challenge, it's the whole thing, isn't it? If you have a problem at work, it's not problem. It's a challenge. That's the positive spin on having a problem

So these are problems. There are problems for people. There's no getting away from that. But I think it's really good to see that people are talking about what they're doing, in all of these five areas, positively rather than ... Like I said earlier, maybe three years ago, efficacy was a watch work for companies like Pearson, and also for us, demonstrable impact

And that did tell me that there was a sort of fear element in that. If we can't prove that what we're doing is having an impact, we're in trouble. Now, these are arguably much softer challenges that people are talking about here. Creating a learning culture is not a survivalist statement. It's much more ..

Ross Garner

It's aspirational, right? It's that even the fact that they will say they're struggling to make it a learning culture suggest that they are trying to create a learning culture

Ed

Exactly. I mean, far, I really don't want to belittle the idea of creating a learning culture, at all. But you know what, if that's the number one challenge, I think learning is in a pretty good place in the moment. Not because it's a small challenge that, but because clearly it's being seen as adding value to the business by the businesses, I would hope. Otherwise, the number one challenge would getting my business to understand that what I'm doing is adding value

I mean, the article I wrote recently, how to become a performance department, I still argue that. I still would love L&D to be called performance instead, because then it would be seen completely differently by a lot of CEOs. But it isn't. And it's still seen as a soft area. But with increasing importance. You can evidence that

Owen

I would say that, Ross, if you wanted to paint a negative picture, you then going the wrong path for that. I think an alternative

Ross Garner

You have a different negative.

Owen

I have a different negative vision. To be honest, I wouldn't even necessarily call it negative. But a bit more of a challenge to the profession, because I think some of those challenges, looking at that list tells that L&D is still on a fairly early stage of maturity in terms of as professionalism

So some of these challenges, you would think, would be solved problems by now. That we've not figured out great, evidence-based ways of creating a learning culture, in particular developing management capability, which aren't exactly ... They're not new problems. It tells us that there's still some fundamentals that we need to figure out, which could sound like a criticism

But I actually think that is the case with a lot of business functions. It's an amazing opportunity for people who are working and learning development right now to solve some of these problems or generate ways to overcome those challenges.

But looking at that list, in particular leadership and management one, I look at that and think, ""If that's one of the top challenges,"" that's has been around for an awful long time.

Ed

Yeah. If I'm honest, I thought that was a bit of an anomaly being on there. It was the one that stood out as not quite fitting with the rest.

Ross Garner

It seems far more transactional, right?

Ed

It does, yeah. Exactly. Which is odd. And I know there's a huge amount of debate on social media around leadership and what it means. But two and three, developing a workforce for the future and digital transformation and digital learning, I think they do highlight, not necessarily concerns, but challenges around speed of technological advancement, and how you cope with that as a learning professional. That's what that tells me

I think it's interesting that the top one is a cultural statement, rather than a technological statement. We were guessing before we did this survey what we thought would be number one. And we were pretty confident that digital transformation would be number one, because that's what we get asked about all the time. So it was a shock to see that that's their priority. Although technology plays a huge part in creating that culture, or helping to create that culture.

Ross Garner

Yeah. It's part of the ecosystem that influences it.

Ed

I would like to think so.

Ross Garner

And then you said earlier that you can't create a learning culture. I'm intrigued what you meant by that.

Ed

I don't think L&D can create a learning culture. It can only play a role in doing that. Ultimately, it's down to employee motivation and the company approach to it. I know that that's, again, an interesting argument. But we've run learning live networks. We get some CLOs together. It's can be split. People can really think L&D can definitely create that learning culture

But recently, I was at an event hosted by Teach on Mars. And there were a lot of luxury retail brands there. So it's interesting to see what high end retail brands were doing in the L&D space to create, or to help create, I don't want to contradict myself, a learning culture. They had different strategies that worked in different companies. I can't name the companies. I signed an NDA at the event. But think of the really top retail brands.

One of them had a learning Olympics. And I thought, ""That's very competitive that. Would that work in every company? The idea that you want to be the number one learner?"" And it also created some problems as well. Bad behaviors in that the person who was the number one learner was only learning all day, and not doing their job.

So they were being really honest about it, and say, ""It's a very strong learning culture. But we can't run like this. We won't have a business in a five years time."" So there's so much in that statement, that their number one challenge is creating a learning culture. You could do a 45 minute chat just about that, because it's full of stuff, isn't it

I mean, how do I get communities to work together? How do I create teams? What's the leadership role here? How do we get the CEO to engage with L&D? Do we use external providers? Do we need an LSM? Where does data fit into all of this, from a creating a culture? It just goes on. And maybe that's why it was number one, because it means so many different things to so many different people

Owen

I find the idea of teasing out learning culture from the way the culture odd. I think learning inherently forms part of the overall company culture. But I think as Ed say, I don't think ... It can't be created in a vacuum. I think L&D departments have got ... Can have input into how to create opportunities for people to learn, and creating kind of the scaffolding with an organization that can help that happen more easily

But really, it's up to business leaders to working ... And right across the piece, working with your HRs, to do with recruitment policies and the kind of people that come in the organization. The culture emerges. It can't be created from somewhere. So I find that whole concept of treating learning culture separate from wider culture strange

Ed

Yeah. It's just life, isn't it? I mean, I think I wrote in the article recently that it appears utopian, this idea of creating a learning culture. And I suppose it is. But as you say, it doesn't mean that L&D cannot create supportive infrastructures. That's the role. Help people build, discover, share information within their work. A function that's part of the business, fine tuned into the business.

And that idea of sharing knowledge, bring people closer to those that know the information that you want to attract. So there all sort of things contained within it. I wouldn't abandon it as a concept. And I know you're not suggesting that. But I just share your amusement, maybe, this idea of we're going to create a culture. That's what we'll do on Monday. Let's go and build a culture.

Ross Garner

So I did not read it in the same as you did. I took it more as, from that one line, changing the existing culture so that it's got a more of a focus on learning, rather than creating a whole separate culture. But I think that two questions spring to mind. And I think one of them would be a mistake to discuss, which is what do we mean by culture? And then I think the more practical question might be, Ed, you started talking there about the role of L&D, and how it can influence this culture. What does that look like in practice? So what do you see as the modern role of L&D to facilitate it

Ed

As a function?

Ross Garner

Sure.

Ed

Or as a concept? Yeah, okay.

Ross Garner

No. Lets not be conceptual. We're 20 minutes deep. So we'll get into more practical stuff. Yeah.

Ed

We just sorted out what culture means. Let's not have a conceptual argument on later. So I think maybe the role of learning leaders ... Not maybe. It's definitely changed significantly. The expectations on the leaders are that they're technologically competent. They understand how technology can impact learning in the organization. They're able to demonstrate impacts. They understand business. Probably, they need to uniquely proficient in people skills.

And then importantly, which is a big area for the LPI at the moment, really understanding where learning is actually happening. Being where the learning is is the statement we've often been associated with as an organization. It's what we're trying to help people with

If you contrast a couple of reports, maybe two or three reports. So the World Economic Forum report on most employable skills that came out recently. Actually, it's a couple of years now, isn't it? Everybody predicted that there would be coding skills somewhere near the top. That would be really important. None of them were technical skills in the top 20. They were all what we might have called soft skills, or people skills

So creativity, empathy, emotional intelligence. Those were the top skills, arguably because technical skills by this point are a given. Most people have them. I'm not sure I agree with that. But if

Ross Garner

Especially for coding.

Ed

Exactly. Bonus coders. Maybe there are points for coding culture. Who knows? But if you took the World Economic Forum report, and then you match that with the Google report about what makes an effective team, atop of that was psychological safety. The freedom to fail.

So you've got that. But then you've got information, the speed of technological advancement. And one of the favorite slides that I use, how long it took for certain of technology over the last 100 years to reach 50 million users. Ad forgive for not knowing the exact numbers

But the landline telephone took a surprisingly long amount of time to get to 50 million users. And the TV maybe 23 years. But Pokemon Go was 36 hours. So that's the world we live in. And yet, as we've just discussed, the number one priority is a learning culture

So it's so difficult for learning leaders now to have all of these different skills that are in that environment where technology permeates everything that we're doing. And yet they also need to be able to understand what motivates people. So that's what I would say from a leadership perspective for people who are running L&D teams. I think that's what this information tells us.

As far as L&D a department, they're definitely perceived now, increasingly anyway, not across the board. But I would definitely argue that they're far from being perceived as a call center. They are now intrinsic to business success, attracting talent, retaining talent, genuinely developing skills that people require. That clear.

The economic imperative statement that came out from The Economist was a significant step by thinking L&D as an industry, calling it an economic imperative was great. And as I said, I'd really like to see L&D be called a performance department. If a company did that, that would be amazing, because that's actually what they're ultimately there to do

So if you say the learning leadership skills need to change, definitely the skills of the people within L&D need to change. And we know that from what we do on the capability map

Owen

I think, and you've referenced it there again, it's that thing around where the focus of the function needs to be. It should be on performance. I think part of the challenge in creating a genuine learning culture is to actually stop focusing on learning as the goal. It needs to be in service of something. And that's about performance, about capability, et cetera.

And so part of me wonders whether learning functions would be better off not worrying so much about whether people recognize what they're doing as learning, as long as they are actually learning and building their own capability. So there's lots of situations where L&D functions can do things where you're creating opportunities to learn that people wouldn't necessarily define as learning

So a number of time, I think, in the past, I have had a number of conversations, when we've talked about development. And someone will say, ""Well, I haven't really had many opportunities to develop."" And then we talk through the stretch assignments and the projects that they've been given. And you kind of hear them and say, ""Actually, look how much your skills have built as a result of actually doing the work, as opposed to going on a course, or doing an online thing, or whatever,"" that they would necessarily recognize as learning

And so I think there's an interesting challenge there around L&D functions wanting to take credit by doing stuff that people recognize as learning, so that they can say, ""I have learned a bunch of stuff."" As opposed to building skills and capabilities with the whole organization and maybe they don't get the credit for it from the wider organization, as long as the senior management recognizes they're doing really good stuff, and we're seeing an impact from that

Ed

Yeah. I think you're right. As I said, it's less survivalist now in L&D. I don't think that demonstrating impact argument is as important to people, because people are seeing that it is important. They just understand that it is

And yet, you still find L&D functions doing things to just show that they're doing a good job. And also I regret saying this. So I'm ashamed to say that this work is working in industry where this is case. But there are still order takers. There are still people who will, ""We need 50 people going through this."" Okay. Still people at the end of a financial year, ""How did you get on in L&D this year."" ""Well, we delivered a record number of course."" And that's the indicator

And we've been saying that for year. So I'm really interested in the modern pioneering organizations that are finding different ways to evidence how they've created impact. And I can be if you're using LXPs or NGLEs, depending on which organization's terminology you want to choose. But it's

Ross Garner

Do you want to say what they are?

Ed

Linear experience platforms. Next generation learning environments. Same kind of thing of me. But what I am saying is that transformation from investing in just LMSs, the expectation of the buy in of the L&D leader is much more around I know what it needs to do. You can tell me the functionality of your technology. Great. And you've added this now, which makes it completely different to everybody else's. Great. But actually, I want this

And the shift to the buyer, that's an interesting point when we've seen the development of L&D. But you're right. You're absolutely right in your point. If we said, how is it embedded in work now, I'm not too sure many organizations have cracked that, embedding learning into the workflow. But it should be

And in order to do that, you have to use the collective intelligence of the company, which is what you were just implying there, or specifically what I inferred from that. David Perring is very good on this topic. He talks about this concept of nudging people at the point of need as well

So I think, to summarize on this point, the educational process at work doesn't need to be formal. That's a given. How you use technologies that are available to you to do that, there's a myriad of opportunities there. You can go ahead and just try it. That as the message which has come out of a lot of events since 2019 that I went to in different parts of the world. That you know what? Just experiment. It doesn't matter if it doesn't work

Experiment, try things. It might fail. But if it works, isn't that great? It wasn't that long ago that organizations were saying, ""We are use Yammer, or we use Slack. And we're already cool. We're ahead of the curve."" I'm not so sure about that now. I'm not so sure people would say that's ahead of the curve these days, or whether it's actually worked

So I like the fact that it's ever changing, and it changes so rapids in L&D. That's what I like about it. And if your question is what does it tell us about L&D? It tells us that you've got soft skills to worry about. You've got you're now evolve with people across the company. You should be helping culturally. Also L&D needs to be utilizing technology effectively. And with that, you can actually demonstrate impact

But it's that order, whereas it used to be how on earth do I demonstrate impact? Doing these course. Kirkpatrick models. That's what we would talk about

Ross Garner

So I think that that is a nice summary of what makes a learning organization. I'd like to move on. But I want to just very briefly challenge the notion of performance over learning. And I want to challenge it in relation to the second point in your list. Developing the workforce of the future.

So what I'm thinking is, if you're going to develop the workforce of the future, maybe you're looking down the road and saying, ""At some point in five years time,"" let's take artificial intelligence just like an example. ""We want to be using artificial intelligence, and no one in this business knows anything about that, or where the opportunities might lie. So maybe we want people to learn about artificial intelligence."

Now that has no immediate performance focus whatsoever. It might even have a downturn in performance as people are finding out about artificial intelligence. But that can create opportunities later on. So what does that say about the role of learning? I mean, is it fair to say that we don't want to have any learning at all, because we're focusing on immediate performance

Owen

Oh! You just used the words immediate there. I don't think that's what either Ed or I are saying.

Ross Garner

I don't think I ever made you go on path.

Owen

Yes. Well, you've done your usual thing. This is your journalistic background coming out. And yeah. But I mean, having a focus on performance does necessarily include learning. But also building capability for the future. So to you point around AI, building capability that will lead to performance in the future is important

Ross Garner

I just think when we talk performance, often it sounds like that is what we're talking about. It's about you can scrap L&D entirely and just have a checklist

Ed

Well, I definitely disagree with that. No, I completely disagree with that assertion. Performance to me is just, it's about helping people do what they need to do better, or even helping people do what they don't need to do, but they want to dom better. You're supporting people's development, and the organization's development too. Ultimately, hopefully, the organization's commercial success, if you're working in a business. That's a driver as well, right

So I don't think ... No. I want people to have the freedom to explore what they're interested in. At the end of the day, it's irrefutable that you can't spot people doing that anyway. I know that there are certain functions in this country, and I won't name them, where you can't access the internet. You're not allowed to access the internet on your computer at work. It's 2020, and you can't do that

But every single one of those people probably has a mobile phone, a smartphone. And they goon the internet on their phone and look at YouTube videos at lunchtime, or order things on whatever stores. So we can't stop it.

Steve Wozniak, Stephen Hawking, Elon Musk, I think in 2016 wrote the United Nations saying if we don't do something about it, AI will become unstoppable. And I think nine months later they had to write to the United Nations and say, ""It's too late. It's officially unstoppable.""

So it's not a question of do we want to use this. It's a question of how do we use it? Because unless we switch off the internet, it's now a part of our lives

Ross Garner

I mean, there are days

Ed

Yeah. I've got a 15 year old daughter and a 13 year old son. So yeah. Turning off the WiFi is the only control I have.

Ross Garner

All right. So I think you've sufficiently answer the false argument that I set up. Let's leave it there. We'll move on to our regular feature, what I leaned this week, where we share something that we picked up over the past seven days. Owen, do you want to go first

Owen

Sure. I have a podcast recommendation this week. And we don't talk about this a huge amount on this podcast, because we focus on learning and development. But at Good Practice, we're part L&D specialists, part digital product development specialist. And one thing we do talk about on this podcast a fair bit is the opportunity for L&D to learn from other domains

And I believe there's an awful lot that L&D can learn from how products teams create product. So Product Experience is a podcast that's all about making digital products. And the latest episode features an interview with Tomer Sharon, who is the head of user research and metrics at Goldman Sachs. Formerly, he used to work at Google and WeWork

And he talks about the heart framework which is a model to help product teams develop a series of metrics that measure what really matters in terms of the performance of a digital product. So it's a really interesting dive into how do you figure out what to measure, and what really tells you something useful about the online property that you're developing. So we use the heart framework internally here. But I learned an awful lot from this episode

So a great podcast, if you're interested in learning more about what makes a great product development. And plenty, really, just honestly loads that L&D professionals can adopt into their own practice from it

Ross Garner

Excellent. We have a link to the show for that. Ed, what have you learned in this week

Ed

On the podcast side of things, I definitely ... It was just completely different to L&D. But in the spirit of what you just said about people learning about AI, and it hasn't necessarily got a reference to that work. But should we encourage that kind of behavior? Definitely, for me

So this year, 2018, sorry, was the year where I really started to see the value of podcasts. And I think everybody might have had the same route, maybe. So I had to listen to them more and more

But there's a new one, came out a week or so ago, Claudia Winkleman and Tanya Byron. And it's how families work together, relationships in families, the challenges that can happen, and how you deal with those. And I was mildly interested in it. I thought this, I'll give it a go

But actually, from a psychological perspective, it was absolutely fascinating. The first episode is a gentleman and his relationship with his father that estranged, and how he could recover that. And Tanya Byron shifted that on its head and made it more about the father psychological issues than it being your challenge. That it was shared

So I do think, as it's been a lay bit message by me maybe in this chat, the technological side of it is not going to wait and it's really important in L&D, obviously. But I think it's encouraging to see that people really care about other people as well. That, I found interesting.

You look at Me Too movements, the Women are Learning movement, Sharon and Kate are the people that that are involved in. There's a lot of very good motivation, I think, behind people in L&D. And I think that's what attracts. It seems to attract people like that, as an industry. Long may that continue, I have to say

But I would say that podcast. And maybe recently, not necessarily in the last seven days, but just one additional thing, I became fascinated by something Daniel from, I think, [Zetalia 00:35:58]? Is that the name of the company? And AI company.

He was talking about around DIKW, data, information, knowledge, wisdom, as a pyramid. And we're in planning mode at the LPI. We're really looking at that at the moment, how we extract in the right data, how we're interpreting that data into information that can help people be more effective and be more knowledgeable, and be wise. The difference between being knowledgeable and being wise. I might add though, you'll expect me to say this, maybe I would add performance to the top of that pyramid.

Ross Garner

Okay. So they'll be some short notes to all of that, that listeners can find wherever they get their podcast. We spoke to Kate and Sharon for our woman in learning special in episode 145. So I'll put a link to that I our short notes as well

Ed

Yes, brilliant

Ross Garner

Last week, I recommended a film on what I learned this week. But it's Oscar season. So I'm going to do the same thing again. I just saw 1917, directed by Sam Mendes. And it was sensational. It might be the best film I have ever seen.

Ed

Really?

Ross Garner

So for those who don't know, it's about two British soldiers during World War I. They have to deliver a message to another battalion, overnight, to tell them to call off an attack. Otherwise, 1600 men will die. And one of the soldiers in this battalion is the brother of the one delivering the message

And the films big gimmick is that it's all done in one take, sort of. It's not really. But it looks like it's all done in one take over the course of two hours, with a bit of a jump in the middle. And the thing is sensational. It's so immersive. You've had the edge of your seat your whole time.

And at the end of the film, I was there with my brother, we were both sobbing, watching the final scene. And it's far more beautiful than you would think for a film in the trenched. It just looks incredible.

And I'm going to bring this kicking and screaming back to L&D, because you sometimes hear folks say, ""If you're having a video in L&D, you need to cut every six seconds otherwise people won't pay attention."" You don't need to cut at all. It all depends on what the video is you're making. But a top recommendation for that film. I thought it was incredible

Ed

Great recommendation.

Owen

I thought people would say that it's a similar kind of experience to when they saw Gravity in the cinema.

Ross Garner

Yeah. That is actually a good comparison. Yeah.

Owen

Yeah. I'm just saying. And would you say that you need to see it in the cinema to get the full effect?

Ross Garner

I think so, yeah. I would see it now. Yeah

Owen

Okay. That's on my list of things to do this weekend. And I'll do that Saturday night. I'll report back.

Ross Garner

Yeah, do so. And that's it. That's all from us. If you'd like to get in touch with us about anything we said on this show, you can tweet me @rossgarnerGP. You can tween Owen

Owen

@owenferguson.

Ross Garner

You could tweet Ed.

Owen

@edmundmonk. E-D-M-U-N-D-M-O-N-K.

Ross Garner

Great. You can also tweet @goodpractice or @goodpracticeAUS. You can find out more Good Practice at goodpractice.com, where you'll find our catalog of podcasts and details of our award winning performance support toolkit. And also E-Learning

I realized last week I'd failed to plug that part of the business that I work in. So I'm rectifying that now. If you're looking for E-learning, or any kind of digital learning content, really get in touch and we can have a chat. Ed, can say a little about what LPI do actually, just for those that haven't heard of you before

Ed

Yeah. It's 24 or 25 years old now. Originally, it was Institute of IT Training. Worldwide body, with individuals and organizations, has customers in 74 countries. We exist to drive performance through learning. It's a popular used phrase at the moment. I know Andy's got a book out. It's from CIPD, which is excellent as well. That's what we exist to do as a company

So we look organizationally how people use learning to develop businesses. But we also look at competences and capabilities within people, and do the usual things that you'll expect it needs to do. Awards events, conferences, networking forum. So if you want to share ideas on this, and find more articles in this space, we have a free social network as well the LPI runs, called learning professional network. And it is learningprofessionalnetwork.com

Thousands of people on there. And we post all sort of articles and audio pieces. We'll link back this obviously when it's out. But I'd encourage people to look at that. That's more of our kind of magazine of content site rather than the corporate site.

Ross Garner

Great. Finally, if you've enjoyed this show at home, why not help support it? Just leave a review wherever you get your podcast. And that would be a great help to us. Next week, we're bringing you a special announcement from Good Practice.

Ed

I'm excited.

Ross Garner

Stay tuned to find out what that is.

Ed

Teaser.

Ross Garner

Until then bye for now.

Ed

Thanks very much. Bye-bye now.

The LPI are online at: thelpi.org and run a free social network at: https://learningprofessionalnetwork.com/

The article that discussed Ed, Owen and Ross discussed was ‘Driving performance through learning in 2020’, from TrainingZone, available online at: https://www.trainingzone.co.uk/develop/business/driving-performance-through-learning-in-2020

The Google project Ed referenced was ‘Project Aristotle’, described by Google at: https://rework.withgoogle.com/print/guides/5721312655835136/

The podcast that Owen recommended was ‘Keeping Track Of Your HEART – Tomer Sharon on The Product Experience’, from The Product Experience, available online at: https://www.mindtheproduct.com/keeping-track-of-your-heart-tomer-sharon-on-the-product-experience/

The podcast that Ed recommended was ‘How Did We Get Here?’, online at: https://podtail.com/en/podcast/how-did-we-get-here/

Our Women in Learning Special, referenced by Ross, is online at: https://www.goodpractice.com/blog/podcast-145-women-in-learning-special

The film that Ross recommended was 1917, directed by Sam Mendes.

Edmund Monk

Edmund Monk

CEO, The Learning & Performance Institute (LPI)

Edmund is a prominent industry figurehead and one of the most well-connected people in learning globally.
He is Founder of The Learning and Performance Institute www.thelpi.org and Founder of CLO Connect www.cloconnect.com. He is also an International speaker at events and organizations.
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Ross Garner

Ross Garner

Head of Learning Experience, Emerald Works

Ross has been working in L&D for seven years and he heads up the instructional design team at Emerald Works. In 2019 he completed a Masters in Digital Education and was named Learning Technologies’ Learning Designer of the Year. He is also one of the hosts of the GoodPractice Podcast.
Connect
Owen Ferguson

Owen Ferguson

Product and Technology Director, Emerald Works

A self-confessed nerd, Owen is passionate about taking an evidence-led approach to developing digital products that solve real-world problems. He is also a regular on our weekly podcast.
Connect

About the author

Ross Garner

Ross Garner

Head of Learning Experience
Ross has been working in L&D for seven years and he heads up the instructional design team at Emerald Works. In 2019 he completed a Masters in Digital Education and was named Learning Technologies’ Learning Designer of the Year. He is also one of the hosts of the Good Practice Podcast.

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