Hello, and welcome to the Good Practice podcast from Emerald Works, a weekly show about work performance and learning. I'm Ross Garner. This week we thought we'd step outside for a bit to look at how bushcraft instructor and writer Paul Kirtley crafts online learning away from some of the pressures of the corporate environment. We're joined today by Paul. Hello, Paul
Hi. Hi, how are you doing
Yeah. Great. Thanks. Thanks for joining us.
We're joined by return guests, Craig Taylor himself an avid online bushcraft guide. Hello, Craig
Hi, Ross. Thanks for inviting us back. I clearly wasn't offensive enough on the first podcast. So let's see, what I can do is time round
Now's your chance? Finally, we've got regular contributor Owen Ferguson. Hello, Owen
Hello, Ross. Hello again, Ross, another video call
Yeah. We love them. We have them five times a day. It's great. So I'm conscious that the link between bushcraft and workplace learning might not be obvious, but when Craig suggested this topic, I had a look at what Paul had done online and there is a tremendous volume of courses, there's a blog, a podcast, a YouTube channel all about bushcraft. What I liked was that it felt like a huge amount of output from one person, but probably with very little time speaking to an IT department about what's possible or getting sign off from a legal team, and all these kinds of things that we often face in the corporate world
So I'm not saying that these teams don't have their place or that their concerns aren't valid. But what I'd like to chat about today is if we set all of those checks and balances aside and let one enthusiast do whatever the hell they like, what might happen? So Paul and Craig, why did you guys start creating online content around bushcraft, and what have you got out it
Okay, well, I'll kick off with that. So basically I started my own business about 10 years ago. Facebook was really kicking off. Lots of stuff was going on online. Social media was really becoming very mainstream, and it struck me that one of the ways to market a business was through social media. I knew nothing about online content creation. I knew nothing about websites. I didn't even know how to register a URL. When I set my own business up, I had to register a website name and all of those things, I didn't know how to do any of that
But one of the things I wanted to do straight away was start a blog because there were lots of things I wanted to share and I didn't necessarily want to charge for them. Even though I was running a course business, there's a bunch of stuff that you never have time to discuss on a course necessarily, or you might want to go into more depth or you want to share your own experiences, which are valuable to people that augment maybe the more structured training you're giving on a course. So I definitely wanted
It might be worth saying just what the courses are that you run as well. Because when we talk ant course in this podcast, we almost always talk about corporate e-learning and you're using it differently
Yeah. Yeah. Fair enough. So basically I used to work for Ray Mears. I used to run his outdoor education business and it was all physical courses and overseas trips. I started my own business Frontier Bushcraft in 2010, and that very much again was outdoor training. So it's primarily based in the UK, it's primarily adults and it's primarily private individuals
We do do a little bit of sort of corporate team building, but it's largely individuals who want to come and learn particular skills. And so, we have a range of outdoor courses. Some of them are a day. Some of them are two days. Most of them are five or six days. People come and camp in the woods and we teach them practical outdoor skills, and there's also a bit of technical kind of more academic knowledge-based in there as well. But one of the things that struck me was that the online side of things would be a very useful space to be a sort of repository of the more technical stuff
So whether it's knowledge about how to deal with hypothermia or whether it's more technical knowledge on knife sharpening, or whether it's about outfitting a canoe, or all of these things that you can show people in person, but then maybe they want to refer back to. And so, it seemed in terms of actually delivering training it seemed like there was definitely space even within the outdoor world for having an online platform for people to learn from and people to refresh things that we've maybe gone over on a physical course.
Then the other side of it, as I alluded to initially was, I wanted a way to market the business. This was when everything was moving around, I just read The 4-Hour Workweek by Tim Ferriss. And so, I very much wanted a way to kind of bootstrap the marketing without spending tons of money, and social media and a blog definitely fitted into that as well.
So that there was inbound traffic that was generated by people searching for things that I was writing about and creating content about, and that would then bring the business into people's awareness. And so, there was a kind of joint motivation for creating online content that was free to access at that point and that was always part of the strategy. Then the paid content came a few years later down the line, but the initial motivation was marketing and augmenting what we were doing on the physical courses
Great. Then, so Craig, you came onto the online bushcraft scene later, I think. The notion of starting a blog, it seems quite 2010 at this point. So you have a YouTube channel, and as far as I know, that's not a financially motivated thing, you're not marketing anything
No. Crikey, no. I'd have bigger problems with my Wi-Fi connection today if I was relying on YouTube income to support me. The reason I set up a YouTube channel around bushcraft was because in a previous life I was in the army, spent lots of time outdoors, but doing at times very different things than what I choose to do outdoors and enjoy doing outdoors now
Started to get back into the scene of being outdoors when my kids started asking me questions about, ""What's this Dad? What's that?"" and I didn't have the answers. Did a little bit of Googling round, came across his bloke on YouTube, a series called Ask Paul Kirtley, and kind of went down this rabbit hole of bushcraft
A year or two later, given that my day job is around e-learning content and online content as well, it seemed like a sensible thing to almost journal my journey through bushcraft on my YouTube channel. It was never intended to be an instructional channel. It was never intended to be a teaching channel
It was really intended to be me documenting what I was doing, what I was discovering, what I was ballsing up along the way and capturing that. Now over time, it's kind of some subjects have come to the fore that I've got some experience in, but it's primarily, it was online video journal, and that's still my primary aim of doing it. So it was never really for anybody else. It was primarily for me and kind of still is
So, I mean, one of the things that really strikes me about what you both said is, well you're really passionate about what you're doing, basically. So I think in both cases, it sounds like you're doing it for fun. Craig slightly more so than Paul, but Paul you've cared enough to set up your own business. Now a lot of our clients, the thing that they always want is everything in one place. Paul, that is the opposite of what you've done. You seem to have a massive content all over the shop in a variety of different formats. You started with the blog, but now you've got a YouTube channel of your own, you do a podcast and you've got your online courses as well. So what's the reason for having such a range of content that no one's going to go and access all of that stuff, I assume
Yeah, that's a really good question and there are some issues with it sometimes. So I have two main websites. One is my company website, frontierbushcraft.com and the other one is my blog @paulkirtley.co.uk. I can see when people search on those websites, sometimes they search the Frontier site for Paul Kirtley content, sometimes they search the Paul Kirtley site for Frontier content. So it does cause some confusion. And so, I am aware that there's an issue there
But as I say, one of my motivations for setting up initially was for inbound marketing. And so, my blog is my hub for my content. So that's the starting point or the home base for all of the content that I create. So whether that's long-form articles, whether it's photo blogs, whether it's the old Ask Paul Kirtley series, which I don't at the moment, whether it's the Paul Kirtley podcast, whether it's videos, trip reports, the hub is my blog
Yeah, it is a little bit 2010 now to want people to come back to a particular home base but that's the model that I set up. I've moved with the YouTube channel. My original intent with the YouTube channel is really just to drive traffic to my blog. Whereas now YouTube content is it's a platform in its own right. Used to be the case that a really good way of using it was to answer somebody's question, make a short video, and then drive them to an offer, drive them to your business, drive them to a blog, a longer form blog, whatever it was, an opt-in for something.
Whereas now it's best practice I think with YouTube generally unless you're answering very specific questions of how to fix your Wi-Fi or how to change some settings that are in the backend of some software somewhere, that it's more about just creating entertaining content on that platform. So that platform has kind of changed over time, but I've continued to use it because there's value there.
People are not stupid either, people can kind of track you across different platforms, and what your job as a content creator then is to make them aware of those other platforms. So on your blog you have links through to your social profiles, you have links through to your YouTube. Equally, you don't want to be selling to people all the time or even selling an idea to people on a YouTube channel, but you sometimes want to direct them to a course. You sometimes want to direct them to an article. So I think there's value in having an intermeshing web of content because some people prefer videos. Some people prefer audio, some people prefer to read, and there's an age demographic there as well, but you also want people to be aware that those other things exist. So you kind of need to cross-promote them as well
I think that's the fact that you are collecting the content in one place, that you've got a place to go, it's almost like the ultimate expression of curation. So there's a set of resources about a specific topic, actually, all being generated from it by a specific person, but it's all in one place, but is also accessible on the platforms that are best suited to hosting that other content
So YouTube for videos, podcast feeds for your audio content. You've got a Twitter feed that links off to other content. So it gives people the freedom to discover the content wherever they happen to spend their time. I think that's an interesting sort of dynamic compared to the desire to have everything in one place, but only in one place, because God forbid, that people were to access content in anything other than the single canonical place, where it's all collected. So it works from a marketing perspective, but there's part of me that thinks that, let the content roam on the platforms that it works really well on. But like you say, if there's good signposting there, then it will point people in the direction of other content types that they might want to engage with
Hmm. Yeah. That's a really good point. I do occasionally use Survey Monkey to survey my blog email subscribers, and a good proportion of them do follow me on other platforms. But there is an age stratification there, like the people who follow you on Twitter aren't necessarily the people who might follow you on Instagram. Most people these days are happy to look at YouTube videos, even if they don't have a YouTube account of their own, and they maybe never comment on anything because you can still watch it publicly.
It tends to be the older generation who are happy to read long-form stuff. People are a little bit sort of technophobic when it comes to podcasts, they don't always get it. I find you have to do a bit more education, even if you've got a player embedded on your blog, you still have to tell people how it works. They think they have to do something strange with microphones and headphones and whatnot, particularly the older generation. So it takes a little bit longer with the penetration there.
So what I'm saying is there is some crossover, but you're absolutely right, some people prefer to consume content in different ways. Younger people tend to like YouTube, and I don't think it's true that they necessarily like short form. There's this kind of fallacy that younger people when they're interested in a subject, somehow have no attention span because I can make videos and people with big YouTube channels in the sort of bushcraft and outdoor space, they'll make a trip video that's an hour and a half, two hours long and people will watch it. It doesn't have to be seven minutes long. And so, I think you're absolutely right, if you make the content in the format that people are willing to consume, it's very accessible and it's very consumable by them and it has an impact, and that's the important thing
I noticed, in fact, on both of your YouTube channels, actually you do both have some short videos, some videos that are less than 10 minutes in length, but some of your most popular content is much longer than that.
That's enormous. Yeah, it flies in the face of what you hear so often
Yeah. So one of Paul's videos in his top 10 is a 30-minute piece about what to pack for a day hike. Craig's second most popular video is a half hour of review of a bushcraft knife. So if the audience is interested, they will spend the time watching. And so, it just goes to show that a lot of the rubrics about the length of content get blown out, it's actually about interest and motivatio
It is. I think you also need to differentiate in terms of your mind an avatar of who's watching the different pieces of content. The shorter content on my blog tends to be something that's answering a specific question that people often ask and that person may never have seen me before. They may never have come across any of my content before. The people who subscribe to your content, the people who follow you more closely want to hear more from you. They want that longer content. So I think you need to differentiate there.
If you're just trying to answer questions and attract an audience that's maybe cold you want to be able to type a question into Google and get a really short, pithy answer. That's where the content should be short when people want short, actionable stuff. But when they're really interested in a subject and they're being expansive and they want to learn more about it, half an hour, 45 minutes, whatever is absolutely fine. In fact, if you make stuff shorter than that, they feel a little bit shortchanged sometimes
So I mean, I think that there's a couple of things here, which contrast sharply with the corporate world. So one is you can put stuff free online and that anyone can see it. So that's a big concern that a lot of corporates have is they don't want to do that, so they'll have it behind some sort of password key. So that is a constraint in the corporate space
Then their side of it is if you're not going to put it freely online, then a lot of these tools aren't available to you in the corporate space. So you can't use YouTube. The video platform that you do use internally, isn't going to be as good as YouTube because YouTube is the best that there is. So, Craig, you have a foot in both these worlds. And so, I'm interested in what you think in the corporate world can take from Paul's approach and where they may bump up against trouble
Yeah, thanks, Ross. I've written three things down here. I've written two things in advance, but Paul just mentioned something a few seconds ago and I've got upped it to three. So in no particular order, I think the things that corporate world could learn from the approach that Paul and others are taking, often in corporate L&D we go after the big problems
We get a given big project, a leadership program, a high potential development scheme program, a corporate policy, compliance training. They're big problems to solve. We often miss out on solving the small problems. We often miss out on solving those things that actually are affecting the people on the ground rather than the strategic stakeholders at the top that are churning these jobs down to us.
I think L&D teams, if they can solve those small problems, if they can make the person at the coalface, his job a little bit easier, and it's rarely made easier by compliance training. But if we can make the person's job at the coalface easier by solving those small problems, and so, in Paul's case that the small questions that people have on YouTube, that builds up a sense of trust, a sense of stickiness with that L&D team.
So when the bigger stuff does come along, it's not the only thing that the employee is being asked to do. It's not the only contact that the employee has with the L&D team. The big boring stuff, the small tactical stuff is being provided by the L&D as well. So that was one of the things I thought that L&D could take them Paul's approach
Can I just come in to just really quickly?
Because I think just to add on that, is that the way that Paul's done it, is he's made lots of small, useful pieces of content where people were searching for it. You're not funneling everyone towards a central repository. You're putting it right in front of them when they need it
Yes. Yeah., Yeah, you're solving that small ... as and when they've got it, they're a few keystrokes away from getting an answer
Next thing, I think nobody's actually used the phrase, best of breed tools, but Owen came incredibly close to saying those very words that I've written down, best of breed tools. Instagram is a terrible text-based blogging platform. WordPress is great at that, any blog is great at that. Instagram is great at getting people hooked into a nice visual representation of the story or the problem that you're trying to help them solve.
So using that best of breed tool and not trying to put everything into one format/one platform is another thing I think that the corporate world could take from Paul's approach. Use the best of breed tools. It may not necessarily have to be the best of the best of breed tools, but using something that focuses on imagery, whether it's Instagram or something else over text-based is going to help those in situations where a visual representation of something is better
So you do you mean in contrast to using one tool that attempts to do lots of different things?
I mean, exactly that, yes, that's exactly what I mean. One tool, does lots of things, not very well as opposed to using multiple tools. Of course, there is a trade-off you're using multiple tools, multiple licenses, multiple skillsets just so with every problem that it solves, it potentially causes another area of fiction. But I often find that those areas of friction are really back with the L&D team, they're rarely with the end user
An end user is used to flitting from one media to another. Take them out the working environment and people are very, very able to flip from a banking app to an online shopping app, to a Twitter feed, to an Instagram feed. People are okay with doing this. It's just when we bring them inside those corporate walls, we seem to think that people don't have that ability to just kind of self-help themselves online.
Absolutely. Well, I've got 18 tabs open at the moment and that's me having trimmed back quite a bit, but I mean, it's not totally driven by what do I think that people can do, it's also driven by there has to be friction somewhere, right? So if you're going to maintain a lot of different platforms that are really easy for your users, then in this case, Paul has taken on that friction of maintaining YouTube and a podcast, and a blog, and a commercial website. What a lot of L&D teams want to do is reduce their own friction, but that friction doesn't disappear. It normally gets squeezed and appears somewhere else, and often it's squeezed down to the users who need it
Yeah. The friction still exists. You've just moved it from one place to another.
Like a cartoon sketch of sweeping it under the carpet, it just pops up somewhere else.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, there is some friction. I mean, I think if you're putting out public facing content, then if you understand the concept of splintering your content, that helps a lot. I don't know, you can write a blog that's quite long-form that covers five different areas and then you can create five Instagram posts that address each one of those, there's a link in your profile that goes to the blog
You're not really creating any more content, you're just slicing it, and dicing it in slightly different ways. You probably do this, I haven't checked, but you can do a transcript of your podcast and then there's a PDF that's searchable. It's there online. People can find it, people can read it as well as listen, if they're able to listen because of course, some people aren't able to listen.
So it's important to put it in there, but one of the ... You guys are focusing on all my external stuff, Instagram, publicly facing stuff and YouTube and whatnot, and that's exactly what it's there for. That's the stuff that you can see. Craig has seen my online learning platforms that are paid online learning platforms. In some ways, I run them in a similar way to what I might do with my blog in the sense that I create content for it. I have a couple of courses that are pretty much fixed in their content now, but there's a lot more structure there. That is all in one place and it's designed to be in one place
Yeah, I think the difference there with the people who are paying money for your paid-for content, Paul, is that they are invested enough to part with their own money. So there is a very strong kind of emotional attachment there. Passionate about the topic and they want to find out more. So there's a really high degree of motivation there, which means that you're having even just a small amount of friction of logging into a platform, providing it there
I think, in a corporate setting, someone being invested enough to do a sponsored qualification or something like that. At which point, driving them towards a single place makes sense. Whereas, your free content is, can I provide helpful stuff that's out there? All that range of different media articles, podcasts for you and newsletters, there's a huge variety and some topics do work better in certain media. But, as you've mentioned, you talk about splinting content, one of your recent videos was addressing a topic that you had written about a number of years ago. This was about a fire under a tarp or something like that. You'd written something then
Yeah, you've researched my stuff better than I've researched yours. So thank you
So repurposing, but it's a different way for someone to access that content, probably people who are coming across that video haven't read that blog because it's got a certain amount of age with it, or at least it's providing a different perspective on it. The other thing I think that corporates can learn from what you're doing is that you've got multiple comms channels to suit a variety of different audiences. So you post updates on Twitter, on Facebook, and there's an email newsletter. I know some people get sniffy about email, but I know for an absolute fact that it remains a powerful communication channel.
So you're letting people know what's out there. You're providing it a different variety of formats that people can access depending on the context that they're in or what preferences they might have. Then at the point where they are motivated enough to say, ""I want to dig further into that,"" you're funneling them towards something where they're invested enough to go to a single point. I think, thinking about the person's motivation as they're going through that journey would be a really useful way for corporates to think about their own content/learning/resource performance strategy
That's an interesting point.
I'm really conscious of time. I want to come to you-
Ross, I've got one more
I'm coming to you. That's what I was about to say. You have no faith. I know you said you had three points.
The third thing, I think it's certainly from a ... because I've got feet in both camps, it's almost so obvious, it's possibly staring me in the face. I've worked in loads of L&D teams where I've taken ideas to take a subject, something that somebody wanted me to deliver, to facilitate, to organize, and suggested that we do, if not all of it, some of it online
Most of the time I was client-side I got the answer, ""That won't work online. This subject won't work online. That's not going to translate online."" I struggle to think of a subject that is as far away from online and digital and virtual, and technology as the subject of bushcraft, which is, I believe this is the intricate study of nature, of what we can take from it. I mean, it almost poles apart and yet, you know what? Paul and others have done a really good job of putting it online. So I think that biggest
As have you, Craig, let's be honest, as have you. You've done a fantastic job
I think, so the big thing corporate could take away would be the fact that don't dismiss the subject as being unsuitable for being able to be put online. If not fully, then partially, I think any subject has the ability to have some aspects of it put online for people to access synchronously or asynchronously. I think that the bushcraft is a good example that probably is further away than most corporate subjects can be and it still works.
Yeah, my view is that if you can write a book about something, you can make an online course about it. You can actually get better results with the online course, even with a subject that is as practical as bushcraft is in many ways, you can get better results with an online course than you can with just a book. It's like a multimedia book. If you think of it like that, I think you get into people's heads a little bit more about the potential for it
I'd like to, before we wrap up, I wanted to return to Craig. I'll return to you again, Craig, Craig, and Paul, and talk about relationship with the audience because I think what Owen was talking about a little while ago, about in the corporate world you're typically not going to be paying for the course that you're going on, but you would be paying with time.
So I think there's something to be learned here from building a relationship with the audience or in the corporate world, the people who are learning or at the coalface, as Craig said, and then using that relationship to funnel them towards stuff that they might have an interest in pursuing. So Paul and Craig I was wondering what your thoughts were on how you interact with your audience, of let that relationship flourish
Well, I'll kick off. I think it's really important both on the public facing stuff and on the locked content to have a relationship with people. I think, they already begin to ... if you're talking to camera on anything that you're doing, they already feel like they know you. So that makes things easier. It is a little bit weird if you ever meet people in reality and they've watched lots of your videos because they're behaving like you're their mate and you've never met them before. It's a bit strange, but it shows the power of building up that relationship with these media.
You can certainly even just do that with email. You can do that with comments. I'm pretty good, although I have fits and starts, I'm pretty good at responding to all the comments that I get on YouTube videos and on the portals for the online learning, and on my blog as well. Because again, people feel like they're being heard
Even just saying, ""Thanks for your comment."" Even just saying, ""Yeah, that's an interesting perspective. Thank you for sharing that."" It goes a long, long way and it doesn't take much effort. I would recommend if you're going to do that, just set yourself some time in your schedule of like 30 minutes on a Friday morning or something, or a couple of times a week, just to have that relationship building and relationship maintenance stuff in the same way that you might say, ""I'm doing email, and clearing, my email inbox on a Friday afternoon or something before I go home for the weekend."" If you like, an inbox kind of zero approach, that type of stuff. If you just schedule a little bit of time in for responding to comments and you have that functionality within the learning platform, that goes a long way
Craig, I'll come to you because you've built quite the following on your YouTube channel, or I get the sense that it's often people who a lot of people would return to your videos
Yeah, they're all fake accounts. It's my mom basically working overtime on them. I mean, firstly, I don't get anywhere near as many views, subs or comments as Paul. So it is much easier for me to be able to stay up to date with comment because they don't get as many, that's fine. But if we flip that back into the day job, the sort of thing that pays the bills, you mentioned as you set the question up about recommending stuff to people and so on.
When you get inside corporates and that ability to do things in a human way, but at scale becomes incredibly difficult with a human being. Not impossible, it just comes to be more difficult. There's friction there. Whereas, we starting to see the emergence of intelligent recommendation engines and using artificial intelligence and a subset machine learning to be able to look at what people have looked at, look at what they've stayed with content long on
Because just looking at something doesn't necessarily is a measure of engagement, but everything that they've sticked with over a period of time, over a period of time, being able to intelligently resurface, either resurface it or bring new stuff to their attention that they haven't looked at. So I think that yes, in my utopian world there's a human being doing that because there's that human connection, but in the day job real world, that is incredibly difficult to do at scale
So that these tools and these modalities that we're seeing emerging, which are often just branded with AI, but there's a lot that sits under that, is a great way of being able to have that almost feels like personal connection, but is incredibly intelligent at what it serves up as well. If it serves up decent content. It's all well and good serving stuff up, if it's rubbish and it doesn't match with people's viewing habits, so what they're looking for, they would obviously very quickly tire of that, and it may be very difficult to get them to come back
Lovely. I feel like this episode was the most practical for workplace learning that we've done in a while.
Yeah, that's true
I wasn't sure how abstract it might be, but it wasn't, it was very hands-on. So thanks, everyone for taking part. Let's move on to our regular feature of What I Learned This Week where we share something that we picked up over the past seven days
Owen, do you want to go first?
Sure thing. I have been watching an amazing basketball documentary about Michael Jordan's final season with the Chicago Bulls.
I was wondering when this would come up.
Yeah, exactly. I actually literally had to go back and check to see if I'd referenced it before, because I'm eight episodes in now, but it's really about Jordan's entire career. Even if you're not interested in basketball at all, it is still a fascinating study into the career and the motivations of one of the most incredible cultural icons of probably the last century. I mean, there are some amazing studies in there as well.
It's actually astonishing just how competitive he was at absolutely everything. I mean, the man's competitive spirit is, well, frightening, to be honest. I would not like to work with him. So if you're looking for something a bit different to watch while we are all maintaining social distance, I would highly recommend it. It's available on Netflix
The film critic, Mark Kermode has a Tesla documentary, which is how much can we engage with this topic that I care absolutely nothing about? If it does a good job, it's a good documentary. There might be something in there for us workplace learning types as well. Craig, what have you learned this week
Look, Owen's alluded to lockdown there, and during lockdown I've been helping my nine-year-old daughter with her homework, and courtesy of the academically acclaimed Horrible Histories, I've learned that Henry VIII's, six wives expired by the following rhyme, divorced, beheaded, and died, divorced, beheaded, survived. It was about a week ago I learned that. Can I get the damn rhyme out of my head? No, I can't, but if it ever comes up in a pub quiz, divorced, beheaded, died, divorced, beheaded survived
Very good. Paul, what about you
Well, I've been reigniting an old hobby of mine. I took guitar lessons when I was a kid and I stopped. I think when I got into BMX racing, I stopped my guitar lessons, but I've been meaning to pick it up again for a long time. This period of lockdown, I should have been in the woods all of April, but I've been at home. And so, I've bought a guitar and I've been learning to play the guitar and I'm thoroughly enjoying it. It's great to do something that is creative and takes my mind off other things. So that's been what I've been learning about. I've been doing a couple of hours a day of that and it's been fantastic
So I had something else I was going to share, but I'm doing another podcast tomorrow. So I'll bank that for tomorrow. Today I will spin off yours, Paul, which is I have resumed fiddle lessons. The audience will be delighted to hear that I'm butchering the fiddle again. But related to this conversation, I'm doing it online every Tuesday night for 45 minutes and it is getting ... the fiddling itself is not getting easier, but the relationship with the instructor makes it easier each week. As we speak every week, I feel less and less embarrassed about how terrible I am at this instrument. I think that's down to this growing relationship with the instructor, so
What is Amy doing while you are doing that?
She goes out with the dog.
That's it. That's all from us. If you'd like to get in touch with us about anything we've said in the show, you can tweet me @RossGarnerEW or you can tweet Owen
And you can also tweet @Emerald_Works. Craig, where can people find out more about you
At a Crimewatch local- I suppose the best is @CraigTaylor74 is my Twitter channel. Anything that I do kind of gets pushed out from that. So @CraigTaylor74.
And Paul, which of your many links would you like to share
Probably the best place for people to go to is my website, paulkirtley.co.uk. Then if you want to jump off onto Twitter or Instagram or YouTube or anything from there, you can. You can find all of those links there
Great. We'll put a more extensive list of Paul and Craig's stuff in the show notes to this episode.
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